Curse

pumpkin pie · Nov 26, 2009, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

snipped, post on previous page

excellent post Test Me.

tasha · Nov 26, 2009, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Anet designs the farming grounds, the tools available to farm and the rewards. Rewards in this game suck most of the time.

While I don't disagree with your and Test Me's points of view I need to bring this point up.

I'm not of the opinion that when this game started out that ANet designed certain skills so that players could farm certain areas. Prot spirit wasn't designed for use in 55 monks, but for stopping big damage in "legit" combat scenarios. I'm more in favour of the the thought that farming builds were found by players who found combinations that were not forseen by Anet. Anet were trying to patch up any damage they did (RMT for example) before they realised they could harness player's compulsion for new/shiny/expensive stuff to squeeze and extend game life. Through that we've ended up where we are now.

moriz · Nov 26, 2009, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

Why? Isn't GW today proof against that very statement?

I believe you are missing a point. It's not the players fault for enjoying running a godmode build to speed clear, it's the game designers' repeated failures to put challenges in the game that are not as insane as to require godmode builds but still enjoyable and *repeatable*.

The only thing a player can do now after all this time is to *repeat* actions for the 100th time. I have even gotten so bored of having to fight my way through maps to get to Nick for example that I run all the way there, fast click Nick's dialog and die and zone out cause I'm really not interested in killing random mobs since... I'm not actually exploring the map I just want to get from outpost exit to where the collector is.

Sine none of the GW content is designed to be repeatable and enjoyable in repeating it, of course players came up with all the god mode gimmick builds. BUT when I first did a MQSC and saw how the team of 8 split into subteams to do specialized tasks... Man that was first time I actually had fun in ages. I've played and learned how to play every role in that team until I maxed my faction title from 0 basically. It was exactly what GW lacked: soloing but still part as a team working together for a bigger goal.

I haven't ran UWSC but I can imagine is the same. I have however played pugs in UW to defeat Dhuum and I can't see how a team would be able to get past the plains and ice wastes quests without at least one god mode gimmick build player. Because that's how bad that area is now designed.

So really, you can't blame players for having fun. It's all the fault of design mistakes that they made with GW and with the fact that they haven't really addressed any of those problems. The have never designed with repeatability in mind but they did design with grind in mind (120 ecto for the armor, titles, etc).

Therefore the conclusion one can draw is: they don't want you to actually have fun while cleaning the UW 100 times, but they designed their rewards systems that you should do that... so they only want to promote grind and grief along the lines: "I've spent 3 boring hours on each UW run and I needed to do 50 runs in order to get all the ectos I need so it took 150h of grind". (And that doesn't count the 2h you spent only to get D/Ced at end boss x times, and the 2h you spend only to wipe x times). Just like faction titles used to be, if anyone remembers. In 150h of gaming other games offer a ... much higher gaming value than this.

It's all grind, grind, grind and designed around grind as ANet designers can't imagine any other way to make their game repeatable and still appealing to players until GW2 comes out, except title grind, ecto grind, armbrace grind etc.

And we were all lured here with the "no grind promise" from when GW started and we're all stuck in the nice good memories and unwilling to leave, but if you open your eyes and look around... there is really nothing left of that promise today.

EDIT and PS: And with each and every update they seem to make, grind is even more accentuated: the "recent rest" bar at Dhuum and UW changes in general, anyone remember equipment packs? etc.

and it was a huge mistake on anet's part, and it's also their duty to fix it. their biggest mistake was to let it go on for so long. however, a late fix is better than no fix at all. just because a mistake is being made, doesn't mean that it somehow set precedence of allowing godmode into a multiplayer RPG.

btw, if you are really that bored of a game that you need to resort to this kind of play style, then quit. i've essentially quit GW for the time being, since it isn't interesting anymore. i've played this game to death over the last four years, it's been a blast, but i've just done everything that i care to do and there's currently no reason for me to play. if you feel the same, then go play something else for a while. you shouldn't play a game for the sake of playing a game. it's not healthy.

Tom Swift · Nov 26, 2009, 03:06 PM // 15:06

After reading much of this thread I am changing my opinion of Shadow form.

My opinion was that it is overpowered and should be changed but that the change would have little affect on the game.

However, I am now firmly convinced that even though it is overpowered, changing it without changing a great deal of the game itself (especially uw and dungeons) will have a hugely negative impact on the game. With the exception of PvP where SF is not a problem, this has become a farming/grind game - period - with rewards too low to support the grind without some form of "godmode."

All the nonsense about how pugs will form again if sf is nerfed is pointless. They won't. The rewards are far too low to bother finding 8 people for a long grind only to have a high chance of failure before it pays off.

Playing PvE areas just for the sake of the game is excruciatingly boring after the 2nd or 3rd character.

If they nerf shadow form and other farming builds without changing a huge amount of the game itself (which I doubt they have time to do with so few people working on it) it will just become so deadly dull it will be like paying someone to torture you - a few masochists will continue - the rest will go.

So, yeah, SF is overpowered but because of the structure of the game as it is now - leave it alone.

Jk)Phoenix · Nov 26, 2009, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Swift

After reading much of this thread I am changing my opinion of Shadow form.

My opinion was that it is overpowered and should be changed but that the change would have little affect on the game.

However, I am now firmly convinced that even though it is overpowered, changing it without changing a great deal of the game itself (especially uw and dungeons) will have a hugely negative impact on the game. With the exception of PvP where SF is not a problem, this has become a farming/grind game - period - with rewards too low to support the grind without some form of "godmode."

All the nonsense about how pugs will form again if sf is nerfed is pointless. They won't. The rewards are far too low to bother finding 8 people for a long grind only to have a high chance of failure before it pays off.

Playing PvE areas just for the sake of the game is excruciatingly boring after the 2nd or 3rd character.

If they nerf shadow form and other farming builds without changing a huge amount of the game itself (which I doubt they have time to do with so few people working on it) it will just become so deadly dull it will be like paying someone to torture you - a few masochists will continue - the rest will go.

So, yeah, SF is overpowered but because of the structure of the game as it is now - leave it alone.

I Vote u for President! (means... i agree with u lolz)

reaper with no name · Nov 26, 2009, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Swift

After reading much of this thread I am changing my opinion of Shadow form.

My opinion was that it is overpowered and should be changed but that the change would have little affect on the game.

However, I am now firmly convinced that even though it is overpowered, changing it without changing a great deal of the game itself (especially uw and dungeons) will have a hugely negative impact on the game. With the exception of PvP where SF is not a problem, this has become a farming/grind game - period - with rewards too low to support the grind without some form of "godmode."

All the nonsense about how pugs will form again if sf is nerfed is pointless. They won't. The rewards are far too low to bother finding 8 people for a long grind only to have a high chance of failure before it pays off.

Playing PvE areas just for the sake of the game is excruciatingly boring after the 2nd or 3rd character.

If they nerf shadow form and other farming builds without changing a huge amount of the game itself (which I doubt they have time to do with so few people working on it) it will just become so deadly dull it will be like paying someone to torture you - a few masochists will continue - the rest will go.

So, yeah, SF is overpowered but because of the structure of the game as it is now - leave it alone.

Then go to sardelac and suggest that all professions be given the ability to maintain it. If farming is what the game is really about now, and SF is the ultimate farming method, then it's not fair for one profession to have it and no one else.

thedukesd · Nov 26, 2009, 07:24 PM // 19:24

They should keep in mind the fact that the human farmers are the ones that are keeping the prices and the level they are now.

Remove the human farmers and you will see the prices going up and it will not be a surprise to see even 10 times higher prices for all the things that are sold now (ectos,gold/green items, mods, inscriptions,tomes).

Another thing. This will not stop the sites that sell gold/items for real money. In fact this sites will gain more money. Why? People will just buy gold/items from them cause it will be the easiest way to get them. And trust me the gold sites will always have some bots team farming (it happens in other online games and so far I didn't saw a solution to stop them).

Whithout the ability to perma sf the sin will be useless. Without perma sf he will not be wanted as a tanker cause he will be no match compared to a warrior. Whitout perma sf he will not be wanted in a party as a damage dealer cause of course the eles and the rit are better.

If the the sin will still be able to maintain sf but sf will end if he will use a spell it's bad. At least let the sin use only sin spells. This way he can at least heal himself. An acceptable nerf will be something like this: SF will end if you use a non assasin spell.

Regarding this kinda nerf: SF will end if you attack. It's just stupid. Damage from daggers with SF on is stupid low. An acceptable nerf will be something like this: SF will end if you use a non assasin attack skill.

With this ners sins will still be able to perma but they will not be able to use sliver. Sins will still be able to farm as daggers perma but the daggers perma farming is slow.

If they thing that daggers perma are fast well don't hit the sins. Why not change the damage that SoH are Orders are adding?

Even both of them combined are acceptable: SF will end if you use a non-assasin spell or a non-assasin atack skill.

And no SF is far from being a god mod as it is now. There are a lot of things that passes SF.

And if you hit the sins why not hit the 600 monk and the 55 variants?
The 600 monk can be hitted in an indirect way by nerfing famine and holy wrath and retribution.
I don't have any idea in my mind for the 55 but i'm sure there are.

I still think it's stupid to hit the survability abilities when u can hit in other places slowering the farming in other ways.

Ugh · Nov 26, 2009, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Swift

After reading much of this thread I am changing my opinion of Shadow form.

My opinion was that it is overpowered and should be changed but that the change would have little affect on the game.

Ahh, we lost one! D:

Quote:

However, I am now firmly convinced that even though it is overpowered, changing it without changing a great deal of the game itself (especially uw and dungeons) will have a hugely negative impact on the game.

I agree with this. After the Dhuum addition, a majority (from my observations) of GW players (specifically those in PUGs) have failed repeatedly to complete the UW. And, those attempts were in NM with the help of a perma and consumables.* Of course it is an Elite area, but without a perma or that Earthbound gimmick, UW (even in NM) may become a bit too difficult. This probably goes the same for some other elite areas as well.

* Off-topic rant for the people who always criticize PUGs:
PUGs are (usually) not composed of blithering idiots who drag their faces along their keyboards while wondering how their party got wiped by an aloe seed. From my experiences, PUGs have almost always been successful.

Quote:

All the nonsense about how pugs will form again if sf is nerfed is pointless. They won't. The rewards are far too low to bother finding 8 people for a long grind only to have a high chance of failure before it pays off.

That's what they said about UWSC. But that got nerfed and PUGs have been forming pretty consistantly in ToA. There would probably be more if some quests weren't overly difficult.

Deakon · Nov 26, 2009, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

That's what they said about UWSC. But that got nerfed and PUGs have been forming pretty consistantly in ToA. There would probably be more if some quests weren't overly difficult.

But they could be there for the new content. It's too early to tell. I haven't been to UW since the changes but I want to check it out. But only to see what's changed and beat it. Might do it once or twice just for the heck of it but it has never been an attractive framing spot for me.

At this point in the game, I think they should leave PvE skills as they currently are and just give us some new content occasionally. New content is what spurs group endeavors and invigorates teamwork.

reaper with no name · Nov 26, 2009, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedukesd

Whithout the ability to perma sf the sin will be useless. Without perma sf he will not be wanted as a tanker cause he will be no match compared to a warrior. Whitout perma sf he will not be wanted in a party as a damage dealer cause of course the eles and the rit are better.

The eles? What game are you playing?

By the way, you can only have one of a spirit out at a time, so no multiple rits all spamming spirits.

Also, MSDB and critscythe say hi.

Quote:

And no SF is far from being a god mod as it is now. There are a lot of things that passes SF.

And if you hit the sins why not hit the 600 monk and the 55 variants?
The 600 monk can be hitted in an indirect way by nerfing famine and holy wrath and retribution.
I don't have any idea in my mind for the 55 but i'm sure there are.

I still think it's stupid to hit the survability abilities when u can hit in other places slowering the farming in other ways.

If you use SF properly, the only things that can hurt you are touch skills, offensive signets, PBAoEs, damaging environment effects, and traps. How common are these?

600 is nowhere near as powerful as SF. It's also not invulnerable. It has legitimate weaknesses (unlike the poor excuses for them that SF possesses). 55 even more so.

Lishy · Nov 26, 2009, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedukesd

Whitout perma sf he will not be wanted in a party as a damage dealer cause of course the eles and the rit are better.

I don`t quite think you understand what you're talking about.

Assassins are some of the best damage dealers in GW.
Not only do they possess Death Blossom, but they also have the high damage of critical scythe, and to a lesser extent, they have critical spear as a decent damage source.

Also, to say eles are better damage dealers, I ask:
Have you played HM? EVER? Have you done it at a later area of the game?

Not to mention that SF has LOLdamage. It actually reduces damage, you see. It's only use is to solo, and it's overpowered in that aspect.

kupp · Nov 26, 2009, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingXelas

If there is a thread already on this please close this.

Don't know if anyone of you know this and if you don't and love perma sins, be aware because it'll meet an end next month.

Regina Buenaobra/Journal (Source)
Latest Game Update - 20 November 2009

So as you can see the solution for SF is not only Dhuum's update but the next major skill update.

may also include changes to other prominent farming skills - what skills are they talking about? SF will be nerfed for being abused in UWSC but what else could be nerfed 600/smite?

Regina also said that it's going to be changes not only in terms of numbers but in terms of what the skill really does in-game after many "number changes" of SF I start thinking that the solution is giving it another context.

This is Anet's solution for SF and I must tell you that I agree if they really nerf SF.

Is this the case where we say: Merry Xmas SF?

Thank you good sir, since I don't play GW anymore I appriciate finally hearing word as to the end of that god forsaken skill. Might just come back in December to finish a few titles and play the game decently, now that PvE won't be dominated by SF from top to bottom like it is now. That is, until the next overpowered build steps in and assuming SF will really be nerfed properly.

The Blood Countess · Nov 26, 2009, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Then go to sardelac and suggest that all professions be given the ability to maintain it. If farming is what the game is really about now, and SF is the ultimate farming method, then it's not fair for one profession to have it and no one else.

If you feel like you are left out because you don't have a sin to perma... make a sin, its not hard.

I think a lot of people feel the same way i do, Guild wars is getting (or has been for awhile) boring. After leveling every profession, playing every campaign over and over.. maxing titles, playing elite areas old school (cause it was fun). you just get sick of it. UWSC was one of the few things that still entertained me, lots of fun drunk nights with guildies. Now that its gone I seem to be doing nothing but... grinding more titles (I'm so bored I'm working on getting legendary vanquisher on a second character). and buying and selling stuff.
The only reason I seem to play at all anymore is cause I'm in a long distance relationship and my boyfriend and I play together. But I think we will be moving on to another game, cause we are just bored.

Benderama · Nov 26, 2009, 09:37 PM // 21:37

if SF is out of the game maybe more newer players will join, some people are put off when they start playing an assassin because they'll run into groups tellnig them to be a perma sin. the community will jsut move onto another solo build, even if people moan its not as if SF was the only farming build

BlackSephir · Nov 26, 2009, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedukesd

Whithout the ability to perma sf the sin will be useless.

Try to play sometimes with a decent build, not gimmicky shit.

Quote:

Without perma sf he will not be wanted as a tanker cause he will be no match compared to a warrior

Did I just hear the word "tank"?
UH OH, SOMEONE THINKS TANK 'N SPANK IS SOMETHING ELSE THAN A RETARDED CONCEPT BROUGHT TO GW FROM OTHER MMOs!

Quote:

Whitout perma sf he will not be wanted in a party as a damage dealer

Yeah, shows how much you know about playing a sin.

Quote:

cause of course the eles and the rit are better.

And here it shows how much you know about GW. Come back when HM isn't a theory any more for you or something you've heard from people.

intimidator89 · Nov 26, 2009, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedukesd

Whithout the ability to perma sf the sin will be useless. Without perma sf he will not be wanted as a tanker cause he will be no match compared to a warrior. Whitout perma sf he will not be wanted in a party as a damage dealer cause of course the eles and the rit are better.

And no SF is far from being a god mod as it is now. There are a lot of things that passes SF.

I still think it's stupid to hit the survability abilities when u can hit in other places slowering the farming in other ways.

1. Assassins are just that - assassins. Not tanks, not god mode tanks, but damage dealers and solo spikers.
2. Anyone can be made a tank with bonds and enchantments.
3. The whole concept of SF is broken unless reverted back to its original design, short duration of invinvibility followed by a large loss of health as a penalty and long recharge. The original skill was fine-mistake #1 was changing it in the first place. Mistake #2 was the repeated failures to fix mistake #1.
4. Anet nerfed Ursan for its PUG friendly farming of high end areas. Any class could do it and in my opinion was much more amenable to a MMORPG than the current broken godmode of SF with pve skills. Now all we have is "Running Rragars 15k", etc. It's broken, it's about 1.5 years overdue for a real nerf.
5. Bye bye Shadow Form now GTFO.

reaper with no name · Nov 26, 2009, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Blood Countess

If you feel like you are left out because you don't have a sin to perma... make a sin, its not hard.

There are 10 professions in the game. No one should have to play one particular profession (and only that one) to have a hope of being useful. Otherwise, why even have the other 9?

Lishy · Nov 26, 2009, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Correction. There are 9 professions.
There is a scythe, but no profession that benefits from them that don't already have a weapon/

UnChosen · Nov 26, 2009, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Ahh, we lost one! D:

I agree with this. After the Dhuum addition, a majority (from my observations) of GW players (specifically those in PUGs) have failed repeatedly to complete the UW. And, those attempts were in NM with the help of a perma and consumables.* Of course it is an Elite area, but without a perma or that Earthbound gimmick, UW (even in NM) may become a bit too difficult. This probably goes the same for some other elite areas as well.

Especially without a quest save feature. I can imagine a poor pug players face as the group wipes after 5 hour grind...probably would be screaming "NOOO!!!!" at the monitor.

Quote:

* Off-topic rant for the people who always criticize PUGs:
PUGs are (usually) not composed of blithering idiots who drag their faces along their keyboards while wondering how their party got wiped by an aloe seed. From my experiences, PUGs have almost always been successful.

You have been extraordinarily lucky. That's all i can say. The only reason I had success with pugs outside of end game areas can be summed up in two words: Minion Master. Pugs had always relyed on easy to use "overpowered" skills to even come close to normal efficiency.

Quote:

That's what they said about UWSC. But that got nerfed and PUGs have been forming pretty consistantly in ToA. There would probably be more if some quests weren't overly difficult.

oooohhhhh look at this, mini dhumm, mini crawler, they're so cute! I want one! *20 failed pugs later* F**K this I'll just solo grind raptor and wait till the price drop.

Blobbob · Nov 26, 2009, 10:47 PM // 22:47

As a quick comment on the people talking about how Anet has broken their "no grind" promise..... how? You can easily get to max level with maxed out weapons and armor and the skills for whatever build you feel like running in about a week. The only thing you have to "grind" for are skins, which are not in any way necessary. The "grind" is completely optional, anything that's hard to get is literally only there for the people who want to look different. Regular armor and collector weapons compete just as well as Obsidian armor and Torment weapons.

People act like you need to be swimming in money to be able to play the game and you don't. I do fine and I don't even bother with ectoplasms, all but 2 or so of the Obsidian sets look terribly bland which makes them worthless to me personally. Anet kept their promise, there's a difference between being able to reach the point where you're on a level playing field without any grind and being able to run the game completely dry in a week. Titles and expensive items give players something to strive for but they have absolutely no affect on being able to play the game.